Welcome to Written in Blood, a Wicked Horror series where we sit down to have in-depth conversations with novelists and screenwriters in the horror genre. Our first guest is Josh Malerman, author of novels like Inspection, Goblin, Bird Box, and its sequel, Malorie.
Bird Box was critical and commercial smash when it burst onto the scene in 2014, but Malerman wrote more than a few novels before then, dispelling the notion of an overnight success. He continued focusing on his craft even when Bird Box was turned into a massively successful film starring Sandra Bullock and John Malkovich in 2018. But despite major successes in both the book and film worlds (and an in-development Bird Box spin-off), he manages to maintain a fresh and grounded enthusiasm for writing and the horror genre in general.
In the interview below, we chat about Malermanâs beginnings as a writer, transitioning to being a professional novelist, his dedication to craft, the positives and negatives of social media, his love of re-writing, rollercoasters, recent horror recommendations, and more.
Wicked Horror: You got your start when your high school friend, Dave Simmer, who worked with authors and Hollywood properties, asked your permission to send off one of your books to some people in the business.
Josh Malerman: Yes.
WH:Â You had a friend with a connection to the book world, but you also had put in the years of hard work to have polished manuscripts to show. Was your beginning as a professional writer a mix of luck, timing, and hard work all coercing at the right time?
JM: Oh, absolutely. It was a combination of all those things. I knew Dave from high school and middle school. I knew that he was out in LA doing something. I thought that he was opening a restaurant or something like that, you know? This was all so long ago now. And I was just writing book after book after book and talking about it. At the time it was on MySpace.
WH: Oh man, way back.
JM: Yeah. The first book was finished in â04, so weâre talkingâŠthat era. And I would just post online like, âWrapped another rough draft today.â And it was coming every six months or something and Iâm in the band [The High Strung], weâre on the road, weâre touring, Iâm writing books in the van, all that stuff, city to city. You know, one of my band mates would say stuff like, âYou know, why donât you self-publish?â And I considered it, but back then self-publishing was not what it is now. And there was like a small press in Detroit that was interested in my first book, Wendy, and that was likeâI canât even explain how exciting that was. AndâŠmy vision only went as far at that point if I put Wendy out with this guy, my book would be around all the coffee shops around town. And thatâd be amazing. And like that truly felt like enough. And I think sometimes now, that still sounds like enough. Like, just to go in a local coffee shop and the coffee shop has any variety or version of your bookâa physical copyâwould be like fantasy come true.
WJ: Just to know that somebody is reading your stuff.
JM: Yeah, so another lucky thing might have beenâand I donât mean this meanlyâwas that the tiny press folded. And because of thatâŠI met a woman who did publicity for books. I met her through our band and I would talk to her about what to doâŠand I never sent the books out to agents, not once. I never sent them out to publishing houses, I never wrote a query letter, I never got a rejection. Thatâs one of the things that I feel that if I tweeted that, people would be like, âF**k this guy.â But the truth is I was writing in a vacuum for like ten years from like age 29âŠabout a decade of failing and writing [more books]. Itâs not like I wrote a book in my office and then Dave came over and got drunk and said, âWhatâs this? You gonna send it out?â It was a combination of those things. Sometimes Iâm haunted by the idea of: what if Dave never wrote?
WH:Â Itâs crazy to think that something so small can have such drastic effects.
JM: In my experience, Bird Box is the greatest thing thatâs ever happened to me. So he is thanked in the end of every single novelâlike ten novels now. Heâs in the acknowledgements of every single one of them because none of this would have happened without him calling.
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WH:Â Which is really interesting because a lot of times when a book comes out thatâs an instant commercial and critical success like Bird Box was, everybody thinks, âWhoâs this guy who just burst onto the scene overnight? It must not be hard at all to break into the book world.â
JM: Oh yeah.
WH:Â But a lot of people donât realize that behind what appears to be overnight success is a writer who put in 10 years of hard work behind the scenes.
JM: Absolutely. I almost feel like thereâs some sort of cosmic barometerâsome sort of measurement that it doesnât matter how you reach it, but you have to endure that before you reach it. So when Bird Box was set to be published, me, myself, and two other authors went to the MoMA in New York City and we were to like give a presentation of our books to like, the press and stuff. This was a horrifying moment, man. Where itâs like my first book ever, you know? And youâre like literally talking to a room full of press people at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. And the thing that struck me was I had written some 9 books in a vacuum by the time [Bird Box] was picked up andâŠone of the other authors had taken the same ten years to write one book. And here we were, both of us, introducing our debut novel at the same time. And I thought that was super interesting. It doesnât matter how itâs done. We both had to pay our dues in different ways.
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At the same time, I do see that Bird Box came out of the gates. I do see it. Itâs like, âOh, wow, right way.â And a movie was made. And not just a movie. The biggest freakinâ movie in Netflix history. We were on set and we were at the premiere and we wereâdude, make no mistake. That wasâŠa dream. [laughs]. I mean, it was an absolute fantasy. ButâŠI didnât get a book deal until I was 37. The book doesnât come out âtil Iâm 39. The movie doesnât come out âtil Iâm 44. And I almost feel like that insulated me somehow.
WH:Â I think that a lot of times when thereâs a story of what seems to be someone having early, seemingly overnight success, itâs easy to get sucked into the trap of thinking that everything happens that quickly and that easily. But when success happens later in life, youâre always working towards something.
JM: Yeah, absolutely. And if you havenât had this moment by 38, 39, youâve discovered what youâre really doing it for. So, you know, again, for ten years, failing at writing books, on the road, with my band, trying to write novels, not pulling it offâŠI used to go to [my dadâs] office and ask him to print out the book when I was done. Because at Kinkoâs thatâd be likeâŠI donât even remember.
WH:Â Expensive!
JM: It was expensive, though, to print out 300 pages, you know? It was freaking crippling back then, man. By the time Bird Box came out, there were like 15. [gestures to a stack of manuscripts beside him] Now thereâs a crate next to me over here that has 24 more that havenât come out yet.
WH:Â Which is really fascinating because any time when a writer is working on multiple books, editing, and submitting to agents, all while working their day jobs, itâs almost invalidated. Whereas in any other industryâlaw or teaching or whateverâyouâd be regarded as somebody whoâs hustling and working towards your dreams.
JM: Yeah.
WH:Â But because youâre a writer and itâs a solitary profession, itâs easy for people to think, âOh, you making any money from that?â
JM: Yes!
WH:Â Itâs almost like itâs negative!
JM: I know! And I think you used the exact right wordâsolitary. That thereâs a sense of âWhatâs going on in there? Whatâs he doing in there? Whatâs he building in there?â Right? Thereâs a sense like, âare you all right, man?â
People kind of frown upon the prolific, you know? Because itâs like, how could you possibly mean it? How could you have possibly put your entire soul into this if youâre just going to move onto the next one?
WH:Â A lot of times you read that a prolific author âchurned outâ another book. But it could just be happenstance of publishing where titles are backed up or the books had a circuitous route to publication. Youâre not just sitting there churning out garbage to collect a paycheck.
JM: Yes. 100%. I know.
WH:Â Itâs super hard because social media has made the world so much smaller. You canât help but make comparisons to your life and your professional goals when everyone elseâs are so transparent and you think, âMaybe Iâm not doing the right thing if my career trajectory doesnât match so and so.â
JM: Yes! I know. Itâs not easy, right? I really, really, really try to keep envy to a minimum, you know? I have amazing things going on with books and Iâll see something online from someone else and be like, why isnât that happening to me? Like, what are you doing? Just relax! Itâs totally a natural reaction and weâve never really had it quite like this beforeâŠI didnât even have a cell phone until I was 31, let alone social media.
WH:Â Which is also great because you didnât have that distraction while you were writing the bulk of your earlier works.
JM: Who knows what else comes from that real life interaction? Because at some point youâre like, how much has social media actually helped me or not?
WH:Â Speaking of interacting with people, youâre used to being in front of a crowd, both with author readings and your band, so what was it like for you to have to eliminate crowds and gatherings of book- and music-loving people for the past two years? How much have you missed live events and feeding off that energy?
JM: AbsolutelyâŠI didnât realize how much I missed it until we were all in person and it was just like filling a gas tank. It really was. It was like, âHoly s**t, we need this, AllisonââŠand then the last thing was I think the way that I figured out how to combat that was Carpenterâs Farm, which is a book that I wrote as live as you could write a book. Itâs on my website now and itâs literally free. And I would write a chapter, rewrite it, post it. Two days later, post the next chapter. It was a performance. It was like a live show. You didnât have the band shows, you didnât have the readings, but Carpenterâs Farm got me through a few months of the early days of the pandemic.
WH:Â I guess one of the positives to have all that time at home is the amount of time you had to work on new drafts. In the afterward to Malorie, you talk about how much you love getting into the nitty gritty of re-writing and the drafting process. What is it about the process that you love so much when other writers dread it?
JM: To me, itâs the equivalent of making an albumâŠyouâre literally hearing the song get better. Thereâs a side to me that would just release every demo and rough track. There is a side of me thatâs like, âoh, who cares?â Itâs fun!
WH:Â See what happens!
JM: Yeah, but when youâre sitting there rewriting and youâre literally seeing every sentence get better, itâs like an amazing feeling. It almost feels like youâre cleaning your room or rearranging your books or likeâŠit feels like, like, whew. Okay. Everythingâs in order now. Itâs cleaner. And sometimes I get embarrassed thinking how my manager read the rough draft of certain things, you know? ⊠The hardest one was Ghoul Nâ the Cape which is like a giant, giant book. I think the word count is over 300,000. And Bird Box is like 68,000. So to get to page 400 of the rough draft of Ghoul and to know you still had 700 [pages] to go, for a moment I started to freak out: I donât know if I can f**kinâ do this anymore.
WH:Â Itâs daunting when itâs something that big.
JM: You kind of have to reach this ZenâŠand time will pass either way.
WH:Â And every ten pages, reward yourself with a cookie
JM: Yeah, that sounds amazing. [laughs] I would like one right now.
WH:Â Iâm a big fan of rollercoasters and saw on your Twitter that you recently took a detour to ride some [at Busch Gardens]. Is that another passion of yours?
JM: Okay, so, no. But my fiancĂ©e Allison is like a lunatic like that. She is the thrill junkie and she was like, âIâm gonna get you to go on a couple rollercoasters.â And Iâm like, f**k, I havenât been on a rollercoaster since I was like 16, you know? And so we went on one. Have you been to Busch Gardens?
WH:Â Yes.
JM: Thereâs one where half of it is like in the dark, like in a giant enclosed building so you literally donât know when youâre about to fall. You have no idea how high up you are or if youâre spinning. Youâre just in the dark. That was the first one I went on. And afterwards I was like, yeah Iâm done. Thatâs it! Iâm done!
WH:Â Have you ridden the Kingda Ka [in Cedar Point]? Itâs over 400 feet tall and goes from 0-125mph in under three seconds. Itâs like a 30 second ride because itâs so quick.
JM: Was it horrifying?
WH:Â It was insane. You have no time to be afraid. So if Allison is a big fan of coasters, sheâd love it.
JM: Cedar Point has a special place in my heart. A friend and I skipped high school and went there one day. Itâs that kind of joy.
WH:Â Speaking of fear, there are lots of interesting things happening in the horror space in books and film. Is there anything in the genre that youâve recently loved and would recommend?
JM: A guy that seems to be just getting better and better to me is Ronald Malfi. Heâs really good. Thereâs certain authors that have such a control over their voiceâŠand you canât help but be super impressed. Heâs one of those where itâs almost a craft thing. But I read Kathe Kojaâs Dark Factory, but like, thereâs so many voices right now. Alma Katsuâs great. I love Andrew Michael Hurley. Did you read The Loney?
WH:Â No.
JM: Read that one. Thereâs a couple authors to me that are just super, naturally unsettling. And that guy, Dathan Auerbach? Did you read Penpal?
WH:Â No. youâre giving me all kinds of new ones.
JM: Yeah, yeah, Penpal. From the word go, youâre like, oh, man. Like, you donât even know whatâs making you feel weird. Another guy like that is Iain ReidâIâm Thinking of Ending Things. You donât know exactly whatâs going on, but itâs freaking unsettling.
WH:Â Have you read Elviraâs memoir [Yours Cruelly, Elvira] that came out in October? Itâs so good.
JM: Oh, dude! Yes! Itâs like so f**king good.
WH:Â It reads like fiction and thatâs what makes it so compulsively readable.
JM: Itâs one of my favorite autobiographies Iâve ever read. This is gonna sound cheesy, but Iâll put books that were special to me next to my book on the shelf almost to like, rub off some magic, and this is the one that is next to Bird Box.
WH:Â Well, Josh, this was a ton of fun. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat.
JM: Thank you. This was truly fantastic. Thank you.
[This interview has been condensed for content and clarity]